Modified Power Wheels - Gaucho Remote Kill w/DC Polarity Reverse

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Gaucho Remote Kill w/DC Polarity Reverse

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skipowder8s
Journeyman Modder

Colorado
USA
125 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 : 14:17:38

Gaucho Kill Switch w/DC Polarity Reverse?
Hey gang,
Installing a Remote Kill on 12v Stock Gaucho HP252 and this DC Polarity Reverse is messing with my head.

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http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RC-12/2-POLE-REVERSIBLE-REMOTE-CONTROL/1.html

As this remote has 12V dc Polarity Reverse with 3 buttons ( ->, OFF and <-), and I want to keep the electronic braking, I’m not sure where to splice in the Yellow, Blue and Black wires.

Remote Wire Layout:
Red: 12v Input
Black: GND
Green: Antenna
Yellow: Power output to motor => direction (+) , [-]
Blue: Power output to motor <= direction (-) , [+]

The instructions say:
When -> is pressed, Yellow wire will output 12V dc and blue wire will become negative or ground.

When <- is pressed, Yellow wire will become negative or ground and blue wire will output 12V dc.

Sooooo.... I was thinking of wiring like this:

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The resistor is the small green rectangle.

I know that I:
1. Splice the Red into the Red after the key and before the throttle.
2. Get the Green antenna as high as possible.

??? but, do I:

3. Splice the Yellow into the White after the throttle and before the Shift Selector Switch (Yellow where my fingers are)?

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4. Splice the Blue into the Blue after the throttle and before the resistor (Blue where my fingers are)?

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5. Splice the Black into the Blue coming out of the Shift Selector Switch and before the "fuse looking thing" (Black where my finger is)??

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This is my first guess, but I could really use the help of you experts.

…..and could someone take a stab at explaining the button functionally? What will each of the 3 buttons will do?

1. Does OFF kill the Gaucho, but the brakes don’t work?
2. Does -> Restore the Gaucho to normal state?
3. Does <- Kill the Gaucho, but the brakes do work?

Remote Specs:
Operating Voltage: 9Vdc ~ 17Vdc
Built in 2x40Amp relay
Operating Range: ~250’

Contacts rated 40 Amps. Operating frequency: 315mHz. Approximate operating range, 250 Ft. Receiver is 3.22" x 2.28" x 1.33" and has mounting ears on 3.5" centers. Includes two keychain transmitters with telescoping antennas and operating instructions.

Ella and Ethan's Dad (Newly Addicted)

- Peg Gaucho w/trailer HP252: 18v Mod, Remote Kill Switch, LEDs
- Peg 12v Polaris 2x ATV: Stock
- Peg John Deere Gaucho
- PW Extreme Machine "Rat Rod": 18v Mod, Traxxas Titan Monster 14.4v 550's, #7 21Ts, 12v Fans, Heat Sinks, Soft Brakes, BMX Tires and Paint
- Injusa 6v XK Enduro: (awaiting 12v Mod)
- PW Super 6 Jeep Wrangler: 12v Mod
- PW Kawasaki KX Super Shock: 18v Mod (Ella flipped it on 24v)
- PW Get Set Go Cart: 12v Mod
- PW 'Lil Quad: 12v Mod
- PW 'Lil Sun Jammer

Project Links: Get Set Go Kart, Gaucho, $25 Jeep morphs into $330 ATV,
PW Kawasaki SuperShock 18v, Injusa 6v/12v XK Enduro
PW Extreme Machine 18v 21T RatRod

Video Links:18v Rat Rod Eliminator / Extreme Machine, Get Set Go Kart Build, Get Set Go Kart Inaugural Ride, Gaucho 4 Wheeling

Edited by - skipowder8s on 08/12/2008 14:24:56

swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA

4067 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 : 14:39:48

Putting the remote wires on top of the wiring diagram for the pics was a good idea.

A little clarification of what you want to do.....
You want it to be controlled entirely from the remote? Or do you want the pedal to still function?

If the pedal still functions, will pushing the "forward" button force it to go forward regardless of what the pedal is doing, or just allow it to go forward after you push that button?

Will the "stop" button make it stop no matter what, just stop it when the pedal is NOT pushed?

Being it has polarity reversing, do you plan to still use the forward/reverse switch, or bypass it?

You'll have to decide how you "want" it to work. After you answer these, I'll see what I can dream up.

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho

Edited by - swhenrik on 08/12/2008 14:40:31

skipowder8s
Journeyman Modder

Colorado
USA

125 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 : 20:12:46

Swhenrik, Thanks.
A bit of clarification:
My Gaucho is the US model with only one pedal (for now). I will keep it 12V for at least a year; then I will up it to 18v w/variable throttle and separate brake pedal.

To your question:
Perhaps this remote is more than I needed, but it has the range and the relay that I wanted.

All that I really want is to be able to stop the Gaucho remotely in an emergency.

To me, that means stopping the throttle input and allowing the rolling tires to 'reverse' the motor for braking. Then I would like to return it to 'normal' state (all driver input).

I would like the forward/reverse switch to remain intact and be driver selectable.

Does that help?

swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA

4067 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2008 : 20:56:24

This doesn't completely apply... but have you looked through this thread?:
FAQ - Remote kill switches, and key switches
http://www.modifiedpowerwheels.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4821

You would only need 2 buttons.
1. Normal operation
2. Stop (full brakes)

For the 3rd choice, you could add a "coast" option, or "zap the kids" option or something cool like that

Braking is accomplished by shorting the motors, not by reversing the polarity.

Option "A"
1. Take the remote, tie the black wire in like you show.
2. The wire from the key to the throttle switch... cut or remove it. The red wire on the remote will get it's power from the key. The yellow wire will supply the power to the throttle switch.

This will direct short the system if the throttle is pushed and the remote "stop" button are pushed at the same time.... and not use the factory resistor.

Option "B"
.... won't work... sorry. If you tie the black wire in before the resistor like shown in the diagram in that link, the voltage to the remote will vary, and likely cause it to act strangely. Also, the power to the remote is only present when the throttle is pushed.... This could be bad for 2 reasons. 1. The remote may default to "off" when powered down and back up. You'd have to push the "go" button, AFTER the throttle is pushed, every time it is pushed. 2. Even if it does not default to off, you would not be able to change the state of the remote between "go" and "stop" unless the throttle is being pressed. This is why having a remote that is powered seperate from the relay is nice.

It's possible I overlooked something..... I'll try to read through it again tomorrow.

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho

skipowder8s
Journeyman Modder

Colorado
USA

125 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2008 : 09:04:23

swhenrik, Thanks again!
Here's my new approach, "Option X"

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1. Don't use remote blue wire (save for future 'kid zapper' option...thanks for that idea)

2. Gaucho red wire coming from the key: Remove a section, connect Remote Red wire to one end and connect Remote Yellow wire to the other end that supplies the power to the throttle switch. I was going to completely remove the Gaucho Red wire coming from the key, but I need its length to mount the remote receiver under the seat or hood.

3. Connect Remote Black wire to Gaucho blue negative wire returning to battery.

In my mind, this allows:
1. Remote "Off" button stops throttle input and shorts the motors causing braking.
2. Remote is only powered on when key is in on position (I think?? can you confirm?).
3. Remote "->" button restores Gaucho to normal
4. Remote "<-" button does nothing.

skipowder8s
Journeyman Modder

Colorado
USA

125 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2008 : 09:33:54

Serious Concern.

Now that I'm getting ready to do some splicin', I just noticed that the Remote Receiver's wire gauges are small compared to the Gaucho.

Gaucho wires to be spliced are about 12G
Remote Receivers wires are about 18G

Will 18G hold up?
Will I have to completely replace 18G wires when I up Gaucho to NOS 18v sometime in 2009?

Edited by - skipowder8s on 08/13/2008 11:27:55

skipowder8s
Journeyman Modder

Colorado
USA

125 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2008 : 11:33:32

Success!
I quickly test wired up Option X:

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- "Off" kills Gaucho, but brakes perfectly.
- "->" restores Gaucho to normal.
- Low, High and Reverse work

I still have the concern of the Remote Receivers wires being of such a small gauge.

Any suggestions for solving the Gaucho 12G wires to Remote Receiver's 18G wires?

Edited by - skipowder8s on 08/13/2008 21:09:25

swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA

4067 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2008 : 13:32:38

Good job deciphering what I wrote (and maybe read my mind a little too?)

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Can you even get all the way into the remote's box to change the wires? 18 ga sounds pretty light, considering the unit is supposed to be rated for 40 amps. I guess what "I" would do is run it as is..... after the kids ride for a short time, check if the wires are getting hot. If the lengths of 18 ga wire are short enough, the actual power loss will be minimal.

Yes, shutting the key off will stop the power drain from the remote unit.

Did you test the braking? I'm wondering if the unit has NO connections when in the "off" mode. If that's the case, I'm not sure braking will be an option.

IF you can get it open, see if you can find out what relays they use. There may be SPDT relays, and they simply aren't connecting to the other terminal. No gaurantees, but might be worth checking.

An additional thought... if you are interested. You could cut/remove the black wire also... with ground from the battery (breaker in this case) going to the remote, and the blue wire sending ground to the rest of the switches. This would give you reverse when you pushed the "back" button. It may or may not effect if braking works when you push "stop."

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho

Edited by - swhenrik on 08/13/2008 13:40:44

skipowder8s
Journeyman Modder

Colorado
USA

125 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2008 : 22:37:40

Success was fleeting.

Everything was going great. I ran an antenna up through the inside of the roll bar. The Remote Kill was working from +150 feet.

Then Ella went straight up a thick, grassy hill...zap. Oh that familiar smell of fried components.

Although I'm running a stock Peg 12V battery, should I put a 40A breaker before the receiver?

Here's the Kill Receiver's guts:

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Here's the fried guts:

42.11 KB

Here's my hack solder job to get her back into working condition:

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This fat-thumbed solder job brought back 2 buttons but lost the third button. "->" and "OFF" work (which is all that I need); "<-" no longer works.

skipowder8s
Journeyman Modder

Colorado
USA

125 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2008 : 22:34:53

Back in action.
Added a 40A, In-Line, Self Resetting Breaker before the Remote Kill Receiver.

Next up..LEDs

swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA

4067 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2008 : 09:48:31

I would have thought the breaker in the battery would have prevented that. If it continues to happen, I think it'll be safe to assume that they don't mean 40 amps "continuous."

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho

BitHead
New Member

Oakville
ONTARIO
Canada

26 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2008 : 11:16:42

Ha! Looks like they have very intellegently built in thermal overload protection for your motors 8). Too bad its not self resetting.

#18AWG wire is much too small for 40A. National Electrical code requires #8 AWG. Try your best to upgrade the traces & cables.

Are you getting the 250' range they say? I'm thinking of getting one of these.

If it isnt broke, push it harder.

BitHead
New Member

Oakville
ONTARIO
Canada

26 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2008 : 11:20:50

I think stock fusing is between 20-30A if its inline (didnt study schematics), you only need #12 or #10 AWG.

If it isnt broke, push it harder.

skipowder8s
Journeyman Modder

Colorado
USA

125 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2008 : 16:40:11

bithead,
sorry for the delay in responding.
i was getting 150' range with an antenae wire ran up through the roll bar.
unfortunately, ella fried this unit for a second time going up a hill.
i have yet to repair it because she is a disciplined driver...for now.

quote:
Originally posted by BitHead

I think stock fusing is between 20-30A if its inline (didnt study schematics), you only need #12 or #10 AWG.

Travvy
Journeyman Modder

Tillsonburg
Ontario
Canada
281 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2008 : 17:20:07

wow, you got a gaucho wiring diagram with the bosch relay on the side.... any way i could get a copy? my gaucho was the same way. And mine had a 25 amp resetable breaker that is now swapped with a 30 amp.... i don't know if that can help you determine guage or not

Those little motors can do that?

Edited by - Travvy on 11/15/2008 17:22:38

skipowder8s
Journeyman Modder

Colorado
USA

125 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 : 23:10:18

Travvy,
sorry for the delayed response, I don't log in that often.
Here's the wiring diagram for a Gaucho HP252 w/Electric Braking:

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quote:
Originally posted by Travvy

wow, you got a gaucho wiring diagram with the bosch relay on the side.... any way i could get a copy? my gaucho was the same way. And mine had a 25 amp resetable breaker that is now swapped with a 30 amp.... i don't know if that can help you determine guage or not

Travvy
Journeyman Modder

Tillsonburg
Ontario
Canada
281 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 : 00:30:50

Thanks very much, very similiar to mine except my accelerator is a sprung switch like the reverse

Those little motors can do that?

skipowder8s
Journeyman Modder

Colorado
USA

125 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2010 : 10:02:38

Had to add this pic of Ella catching some air in her 18v Gaucho

Insert Image:

Edited by - skipowder8s on 09/13/2010 14:16:13

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