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 Schumacher 600 Charger Flaw?
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tomballpkr
New Member




19 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2007 :  09:02:19  Show Profile
Hi, I'm the guy mentioned in this thread (http://www.modifiedpowerwheels.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=136) whose house burned down due to a problem during the charging of a power wheels. I am of course ultra-paranoid now about battery charging in my garage.

I now own a Schumacher 600 charger and have been happy with it, but I noticed something today. If there is a glitch in the AC power during charging, the charger will come up at 12V even if it was in the process of charging at 6V. In Houston, where I live, it is not unusual to have a power glitch and have things inside the house reset/reboot.

This seems like a safety hazard to me if charging at 6V. What are your thoughts? What could happen if charging 6V batteries at 12V, especially 3-at-a-time as I've seen others mention?

Thanks,
JMK

Edited by - tomballpkr on 05/02/2008 20:33:11

chopper
Moderator


Illinois
USA

1228 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2007 :  10:43:33  Show Profile  Visit chopper's Homepage  Click to see chopper's MSN Messenger address
It will not charge 12 volt batteries at 6 volts or vice versa. If you leave it on it will switch the "check" light on and will stop charging. The model 600 doesn't actually start charging until about 10 seconds after you plug it in, to give you time to select which amperage and voltage. It's a pretty smart charger, it's computer controlled.

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tomballpkr
New Member




19 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2007 :  11:42:35  Show Profile
OK, that makes sense and was what I would have expected. I'll try again but leave it on > 10 seconds.

Coincidentally, due to the previous fire I am installing a smoke detector in the garage and was flipping breakers to figure out what circuit the smokes were on and toggled the garage breaker and reset my charger back to 12V. But I realized it immediately and turned the breaker off to go disconnect the charger.
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tomballpkr
New Member




19 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2007 :  23:43:11  Show Profile
Actually, I did some testing and this charger does allow you to charge a 6V battery at 12V. I tried with two different batteries and let the setup sit for 1 minute and the charger did not trip or turn off. I had to manually disconnect it.

If you have a 12V battery under charge and switch the charger to 6V, it will trip immediately and stop. Unfortunately, the reverse is not true.

This sure seems like a potential issue to me. Due to either a power glitch or a kid punching the button to move it to 12V, a 6V charge setup could end up charging at 12V.
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nikg
Journeyman Modder


NC



490 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2007 :  03:58:47  Show Profile
Have you contacted Schumacher about this? Maybe your charger is malfunctioning, but if this is the way the unit is designed then that is a real problem. I would think charging a 6v battery on the 12v setting is far more dangerous than the other way around. I just can't help but think your unit is faulty because someone must have thought of this when making the automatic safety features on this device. Right?
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tomballpkr
New Member




19 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2007 :  15:36:15  Show Profile
Can someone else test theirs and see if their results are the same?
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chopper
Moderator


Illinois
USA

1228 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2007 :  06:55:08  Show Profile  Visit chopper's Homepage  Click to see chopper's MSN Messenger address
You know, i tried mine last nite, and it didn't click off like I thought it did. I plugged in a 6 volt battery and left it on for about 30 seconds and it never switched off. I could have sworn that I'd done that before and it switched to "check" and stopped charging. I'm gonna mess around with it tonight and put a multimeter on the battery leads when it's charging and see if it is actually feeding it 12 volts. Certainly they'd design the charger to be smarter than that.

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keepthemrunning
New Member



USA

36 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2007 :  20:47:45  Show Profile
Chopper
Did you do any further testing on the Schumacher SC 600A charger?
I just purchased one today for my 12V Gruber batteries.

Has anyone tested the Battery Companion for this problem?

Don't want to burn the house down.



keepthemrunning "for the kids"
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tomballpkr
New Member




19 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2007 :  21:10:27  Show Profile
I just tested this charger against three 6V/12Ah batteries in parallel (still 6V). I tried plugging in the charger while everything was connected (defaults to 12V/2A) and I manually switched the 6V/12V and 2A/4A/6A buttons to different settings. In all instances you could hear the click and then whine of the charger entering the charging state.

You can see from these voltage readings taken with a digital multimeter that the charger is trying to charge the batteries differently (higher voltage) at the 12V setting than the 6V setting.

6V @ 2A = 6.7V
6V @ 4A = 6.8V
6V @ 6A = 6.9V

12V @ 2A = 6.9V
12V @ 4A = 7.1V
12V @ 6A = 7.6V

The fact that the readings are not 12V does not mean the charger is not trying to charge at 12V. The voltage across the battery terminals is 6V, although there is some internal resistance that allows the voltage to go slightly higher than 6V during charging (and even higher with attempted 12V charging). It cannot go to 12V because that would be a short condition and pull too much current between the battery terminals and battery cells. The charging circuitry must be designed to prevent such a short and thus the voltage of the charger drops at the load (battery).

However, I believe this could be a dangerous condition and the charger is being operated outside of its designed parameters. It is trying to charge a 6V battery at 12V, although the actual voltage read is not 12V.

Comments?
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keepthemrunning
New Member



USA

36 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2007 :  21:21:34  Show Profile
Has anyone used the Schumacher 600 @2 amps to charge the Standard PW 6V batteries? Would this be a better charger to use than the standard one?

I'm gonna have to check charge times. My Gruber 12V12Ah only took about 3 or less hours to indicate full charge on the 600. I did not take a voltage reading after charging though.


keepthemrunning "for the kids"
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chopper
Moderator


Illinois
USA

1228 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2007 :  22:08:46  Show Profile  Visit chopper's Homepage  Click to see chopper's MSN Messenger address
Ok, I just emailed schumacher about the charging issue that you guys brought up, hopefully they'll have a quick answer for us.

________________________________________________
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Jamesonsdad
Journeyman Modder

Fayetteville
Georgia
USA

342 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2007 :  05:27:58  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by keepthemrunning

Chopper

Has anyone tested the Battery Companion for this problem?



keepthemrunning "for the kids"



The battery companion has a mechanical switch for selecting voltage. That being the case I doubt it has any protection. I do seem to remember forgetting to switch it once and the trouble light came on but I don't remember if it was trying to charge a 6v battery at 12v or visa versa.


Power Wheels, How bad have you got it?


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keepthemrunning
New Member



USA

36 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2007 :  06:03:52  Show Profile
Ok, maybe this has already been covered but I'm not finding it.
What makes the Schumacher chargers better than the stock PW chargers? I'm not refering to the quick chargers. Will the 600 really "shut off" (stopping sending a charge to the battery)? Or does it just charge at 2 amps continually?

I'm almost ready to trash my PW chargers and convert everything to a couple of Schumacher (600 and Battery Companion) but want to know why.

Can someone post a photo of their "parallel" charging harness?

thanks,


keepthemrunning "for the kids"
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Jamesonsdad
Journeyman Modder

Fayetteville
Georgia
USA

342 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2007 :  09:15:41  Show Profile
The way I understand it these chargers vary the current they send to a battery based on its charge state. IE dead battery=high current, charged battery=low current(milliamperes?) The low current "trickle" to the charged battery is just enough to maintain it in a charged state.

Stock chargers in contrast send a constant current to the battery regardless of its state of charge. It's this extra current that heats the battery up and shortens its life, dramatically. But if your making tons of money selling overpriced replacement batteries you really have no incentive to make a better charger.

Sorry, no pics here of a parallel charging set-up.


Power Wheels, How bad have you got it?


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chopper
Moderator


Illinois
USA

1228 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2007 :  09:56:01  Show Profile  Visit chopper's Homepage  Click to see chopper's MSN Messenger address
Apparently there is a "flaw" in the model 600 Schumacher charger. This is the email they replied to me with.

"We manufacture the CR100 / Charge N Ride for vehicles like the Peg Perego.

The SC600 will always default to 12V/ 2 A mode (no way around it)
"

________________________________________________
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keepthemrunning
New Member



USA

36 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2007 :  16:21:31  Show Profile
So... Should we swap turn these SC 600's in?
Or be especially careful. Does the Charge N Ride "auto-sense" the battery voltage and charge accordingly?


keepthemrunning "for the kids"
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nikg
Journeyman Modder


NC



490 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2007 :  18:18:58  Show Profile
keepthemrunning---I can describe my parallel charging harness. Basically all my batteries have male bullets on the positive and female bullets on the negative. That means the chargers have females on the pos. and males on the neg. I split each by connecting a female (or male) bullet to one end of a wire, soldering and heat shrinking two wires to this one, then connecting a male (or female) to each of the ends.
I'll take a picture if this is not clear.
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keepthemrunning
New Member



USA

36 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2007 :  18:34:06  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by nikg

keepthemrunning---I can describe my parallel charging harness. Basically all my batteries have male bullets on the positive and female bullets on the negative. That means the chargers have females on the pos. and males on the neg. I split each by connecting a female (or male) bullet to one end of a wire, soldering and heat shrinking two wires to this one, then connecting a male (or female) to each of the ends.
I'll take a picture if this is not clear.



That's clear enough. I didn't know if you had say 3 POS and 3 NEG leads coming off the charger cable but you have one lead that has 3 connections every 12 inches or so.

Solder -- hmmm -- may have to brush up on that skill again. :)

Are you going to continue to use your SC600 "with caution"? I guess the only real problem I see is to be careful when hooking up a 6 volt.

thanks


keepthemrunning "for the kids"
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chopper
Moderator


Illinois
USA

1228 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2007 :  18:48:54  Show Profile  Visit chopper's Homepage  Click to see chopper's MSN Messenger address
Yes, the only time it will matter is when you hook up a 6 volt battery. I will keep using mine, but I never leave the house with mine charging either, so it's not that big of a deal.

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tomballpkr
New Member




19 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2007 :  19:04:30  Show Profile
Here are photos of my parallel charging setup. I have 3 wires with crimp-on terminals on one end and the other ends are all soldered together. The soldered ends gives plenty of surface area for the charger's alligator clips to bite into.

I have the entire setup on a stool away from the walls in case something goes drastically wrong. I learned my lesson after the first time.


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Dunbar
New Member

Tomball
Texas
USA



21 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2008 :  15:25:18  Show Profile
Just read this thread, thanks for the info. I too live in Tomball and by batteries are charging in the garage while I am at work as I type.

I will be changing that scenario when I get home. The wife has not called complaining about massive fire or some such but I will learn from your misfortune.

Dunbar

Dunbar
Tomball Texas
Silver & Yellow Gauchos, Lighting McQueen 18V, Princess Solstice, Nascar Dupont
plotting mods
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Grunchy
Journeyman Modder

Calgary
Alberta
Canada



146 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2008 :  23:25:13  Show Profile
You know what, I just got two of those SC600A chargers in the mail today.
I've got two worn-out 6V batteries, when I connect one of those to the SC600A it clicks the CHECK light on and off at 2 second intervals. When I hold a voltmeter on the leads it is sending the battery like 15V for 2 seconds, then off for 2 seconds, etc. I left it like that for an hour & came back, it was still doing it so I shut it off.

I hooked up a good 6V battery and just turned the charger on & observed it. It held off for about 10 seconds then started charging at 12V-2A setting. The voltmeter read it at about 8.5 volts. I let it go for a few seconds to confirm it would not automatically quit, then turned it off.

Well, here's a strategy I'll be using. Both the jeep & the lamborghini can take two 6V batteries at a time. All the batteries are set up with bullet connectors, female on + and male on -. What I'll do is just connect each set of batteries in series and use the 12V-2A setting on SC600A.

Incidentally, these SC600A chargers are terrific, they had all my batteries charged up in just a few hours. I had agonizingly charged them for 18 hrs each with my single PW charger, then went and put a lot of miles on them until they were fairly run down. Not too shabby!!
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Kurt_Woloch
Journeyman Modder

Vienna
Austria
Austria



154 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2008 :  00:49:19  Show Profile  Visit Kurt_Woloch's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Grunchy

Incidentally, these SC600A chargers are terrific, they had all my batteries charged up in just a few hours. I had agonizingly charged them for 18 hrs each with my single PW charger, then went and put a lot of miles on them until they were fairly run down. Not too shabby!!



Did you ride those vehicles personally?

Li'l Motorized Beamer
Cheap Chinese 100W scooter
Peg Santa Fe (slightly modified)
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swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA



4067 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2008 :  09:13:45  Show Profile  Visit swhenrik's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Grunchy

You know what, I just got two of those SC600A chargers in the mail today.
I've got two worn-out 6V batteries, when I connect one of those to the SC600A it clicks the CHECK light on and off at 2 second intervals. When I hold a voltmeter on the leads it is sending the battery like 15V for 2 seconds, then off for 2 seconds, etc. I left it like that for an hour & came back, it was still doing it so I shut it off.
You do know you have to manually change it to a 6 volt setting, right? What happens when you switch it to the 6 volt setting?

quote:
Originally posted by Grunchy

I hooked up a good 6V battery and just turned the charger on & observed it. It held off for about 10 seconds then started charging at 12V-2A setting. The voltmeter read it at about 8.5 volts. I let it go for a few seconds to confirm it would not automatically quit, then turned it off.
That is the same as what others have experienced. But the question still remains, what happens when left for days like that? Does it ruin the battery? Blow it up? Or just charge it perfectly even though the setting is wrong?

quote:
Originally posted by Grunchy

Well, here's a strategy I'll be using. Both the jeep & the lamborghini can take two 6V batteries at a time. All the batteries are set up with bullet connectors, female on + and male on -. What I'll do is just connect each set of batteries in series and use the 12V-2A setting on SC600A.
Unless these batteries match exactly (being purchased at the same time, always run together with the same load, always charged together, etc), charging them in series will cook one battery and/or not fully charge the other. This is possibly a worse scenario then having a power bump and the charger defaulting back to a 12 volt setting!

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho
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sully00
New Member

MEDFIELD
MA
USA



49 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2008 :  13:01:53  Show Profile
tomballpkr

Are those alligator clamps just floating in the air? I ask because I am preparing to do build a similiar harness with either a 1200 or 600 and discussed it with swhenrik up above there and he mentioned wanting to ground those clamps to the plastic handle and use the open crimp on the side of the clamp without a wire for the parallel harness.

Here is the thread http://www.modifiedpowerwheels.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5047

Isn't the exposed metal on those alligator clamps hot?


Sully's Junkyard Treasures

John Deer Gator - Kawasaki Ninja - Gaucho Grande - Kawasaki Quad - Cat Dump Truck - Barbie/Camo Jeep (RIP) - Lil' Quad (the only one someone I know paid money for)
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BonnerBB
Senior Modder

Houston
Texas
USA



2225 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2008 :  13:08:34  Show Profile  Visit BonnerBB's Homepage  Send BonnerBB a Yahoo! Message
The Schumacher charger will cut off automatically if the alligator ends touch together while charging...

Those alligator clamps come stock/standard on that particular model of Schumacher.

But there will still be a spark if they touch as the battery is still sending juice to them even if the charger is tripped off!

I had an incident with a similar set-up that has caused me to not feel comfortable charging in parallel anymore. At lease until I find a way of doing it with NO exposed clips/wires/connectors that can fall onto one another causing a fire. I will post pictures later of the remains of my wiring harness.

Thanks,
Bonner

NOTICE: I am not on MPW as much as I used to be!! PM me if you have questions about any of my threads!!!
I especially would love a PM from you if you did a project of your own similar to one of mine!!!

PWMOT Hijack Prevention Thread
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Edited by - BonnerBB on 05/05/2008 13:14:44
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swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA



4067 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2008 :  13:16:25  Show Profile  Visit swhenrik's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by sully00

Are those alligator clamps just floating in the air? I ask because I am preparing to do build a similiar harness with either a 1200 or 600 and discussed it with swhenrik up above there and he mentioned wanting to ground those clamps to the plastic handle and use the open crimp on the side of the clamp without a wire for the parallel harness.

Here is the thread http://www.modifiedpowerwheels.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5047

Isn't the exposed metal on those alligator clamps hot?
The exposed metal IS hot, and it will short out if they touch. Which is why I said to clamp them onto the plastic handle, well away from each other... plastic is not a conductor.

When I'm charging batt's, I don't use a fuse or breaker. So touching the clamps together when connected to a battery would be REALLY bad

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho
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sully00
New Member

MEDFIELD
MA
USA



49 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2008 :  18:05:37  Show Profile
The plan of the moment is to use a 600 as opposed to the 1200. No real need to keep those aligator clips would it make more sense to just cut them off and put on disconnects or to continue with attaching to the clamps and maybe taping the clamps up as they really don't need to make a connection anymore?

Sully's Junkyard Treasures

John Deer Gator - Kawasaki Ninja - Gaucho Grande - Kawasaki Quad - Cat Dump Truck - Barbie/Camo Jeep (RIP) - Lil' Quad (the only one someone I know paid money for)
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tomballpkr
New Member




19 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2008 :  18:55:27  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by sully00

tomballpkr

Are those alligator clamps just floating in the air? I ask because I am preparing to do build a similiar harness with either a 1200 or 600 and discussed it with swhenrik up above there and he mentioned wanting to ground those clamps to the plastic handle and use the open crimp on the side of the clamp without a wire for the parallel harness.

Here is the thread http://www.modifiedpowerwheels.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5047

Isn't the exposed metal on those alligator clamps hot?


Yes, the alligator clamps are floating in mid-air. It has never been a problem and they don't get hot. I set them up so if an alligator clip comes detached there is no way for the positive and negative sides to touch.

I wouldn't want to crimp the ends of the two parallel cable harnesses into the alligator clips. That is going to make a snarl of cables and be trouble when I want to put it away.

I do agree that I should evaluate changing my scheme up to make it more safe if possible.
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sully00
New Member

MEDFIELD
MA
USA



49 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2008 :  19:22:14  Show Profile
I was thinking about crimping a 4-6 inch length of wire with a disconnect on it in each handle, that way I can set it up to charge single or parallel. I am waiting for the unit before I decide but my gut says bye bye to those alligators and just crimping insulated male disconnects in its place. That is what I did with the circle connector kit that comes with the battery companion and it has been a success.

Sully's Junkyard Treasures

John Deer Gator - Kawasaki Ninja - Gaucho Grande - Kawasaki Quad - Cat Dump Truck - Barbie/Camo Jeep (RIP) - Lil' Quad (the only one someone I know paid money for)
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tomballpkr
New Member




19 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2008 :  19:25:36  Show Profile
Please post a picture once you have this set up. I'd like to see it
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sully00
New Member

MEDFIELD
MA
USA



49 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2008 :  09:16:59  Show Profile
No problem just waiting on the 600 in the mail.

Sully's Junkyard Treasures

John Deer Gator - Kawasaki Ninja - Gaucho Grande - Kawasaki Quad - Cat Dump Truck - Barbie/Camo Jeep (RIP) - Lil' Quad (the only one someone I know paid money for)
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jasncab
Forum Admin

Phoenix
AZ
USA



1119 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2008 :  09:50:04  Show Profile  Visit jasncab's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by tomballpkr


Coincidentally, due to the previous fire I am installing a smoke detector in the garage



I started this site just before your fire. I too installed a smoke detector just above where the batteries charge. I hope this will help in the case of an accident, but realistically I will do anything I can to prevent the problem.

*I work here - but don't tell your wife - she will kill me.
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tomballpkr
New Member




19 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2008 :  18:53:59  Show Profile
I have dual smoke detectors in my garage and they are wired into my house system so if any smoke detector goes off anywhere they all go off.

When I first installed the ones in the garage, they were a different brand but they worked when tied into the rest of the house. However, over the next 6 months every month in the middle of the night all of the alarms would go off and I would jump out of bed convinced there was a fire. I was convinced that the culprit was the garage detectors but most of the time I was unable to figure out what tripped. I finally just threw all of the detectors away and started over with a set that matched and never had an issue.

Smoke detectors are not intended for garage use because car exhaust and dust in the air can trigger them but I have never had an issue.

I would like to see a photo of any one else's parallel charging setup, as I am the only one who posted photos in here.
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sennhenn
Expert Modder


NJ
USA



585 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2008 :  19:54:22  Show Profile
I was making an 18V setup for my neighbors, and this is what I did.
I actually ended up shorting out a connector (I used faux-dean's connectors) and became quite disconcerted with this particular setup.

So I modified it by putting a 40Amp circuit breaker onthe positive of each of these 6V batts, right nxet to the + terminal. I still wasn't super happy with it because it made the batteries very bulky looking and awkward.

In these pictures each battery has a pair of leads that are nestled into a tight connector at the end to connect to either the car or the charger. The third and last picture shows the bateries connected to the car end, which had yet to be connected to the car.

In the end I opted to to spread out the trio of connectors and make the user connect them individually. I'll end up making more of these for my kids' ride-ons and I'll take better pics. Ulitmately, when I started modding our cars for using after market batteries I put the fuse on the car-side of the connectors, I am now changing over and putting the fuse on the positive lead of each battery. If it's a 6V tto be used with other batts, it gets a 40Amp, just for protection. Then each car gets an appropriately rated fuse for whatever the lowest rated part of the circuit is (usually wiring, as I am not rewiring mine completely).


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Daddy's Collection is getting out of control. (and this picture is way dated: it includes 4 we don't have anymore, and doesn't show 5 newer ones!)
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sully00
New Member

MEDFIELD
MA
USA



49 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2008 :  07:56:50  Show Profile
sennhenn

So on that 3x6volt set up you would use 3 fuses on each batt and one on the car? It makes sense to me in parallel, but I had not thought of using a fused wire as the bridge between batteries in a series. That would be easy enough I have a bunch of harnesses they send with the Gruber batts that would be perfect.

Sully's Junkyard Treasures

John Deer Gator - Kawasaki Ninja - Gaucho Grande - Kawasaki Quad - Cat Dump Truck - Barbie/Camo Jeep (RIP) - Lil' Quad (the only one someone I know paid money for)
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