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Artax
Journeyman Modder



Davenport
IA
USA

459 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  21:42:10  Show Profile
Ok after basically finishing my Jeep project I have decided I needed another project. I have another jeep take along tunes and a ninja quad that I picked up recently. Well since I just got done with a Jeep and becuase my son goes for the quad evertime I put him down next to them I figured that his sign that says fix up the quad next. So here is the start of this project.

Here is the Quad I am starting with. The steering needs some work but the gearbox's (19T) and motors seem fine and the body is workable. Sorry for not getting a pic before teardown (I did the same thing on my Jeep) I just start thinking about something and next thing I know its half apart. lol


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OK so after much reading and insperation from swhenrik's 4x4 dora quad http://www.modifiedpowerwheels.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4354 I decided to go 4x4 with and esc and twist throttle.

First problem I have is I don't have a welder and don't know how to weld. So I have come up with a good way of mounting the front gear box without welding. But becuase I am using #7 (19T) gearboxes I am also going to need to lengthen my front axles. I am hoping this doesnt cause much of a problem. I am estimating at this time I need at least another inch to fit the gearbox and wheel driver in. So I picked up some 7/16" rod for new steering axles and some 1/2" x 1/2" x 12" long square rod. To mount the gearbox I cut 2 3" long piece of the 1/2" square rod, drilled and taped 4 holes in one of them and put thru holes in the other one, bolted them together with a washer spacer and drilled a 7/16" hole between them. I used the washer spacers to make sure the 2 clamped down good on the rod. Here is a blury picture of the assembly after I got done drilling the 7/16" hole.


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And this is just a mockup before modifying the wheel driver and assembled to a straight piece of 7/16" rod so this isnt exactly what it will look like but imagine a bend in the rod that goes through the steering knuckle.


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99.84 KB

Ok so now I need some help and opinions. I am throwing around a couple ideas in my head atm. I want this thing to be fast but I really don't want to be buying new motors and replacing gear boxes all the time. I am hoping with 4 gearboxes, an esc and a soft brake I wont be blowing gearboxes at least too often. Here are my 2 ideas

24v scooter controller:
advantage: retains high/low, easier to fit 2 12v batteries.
disadvantage: from what I have read 24v high may be too fast, not sure if the 24v 500w controller will be able to provide enough power for 4 motors in high. motors won't last as long. tncscooters has been out of the 24v 500w controllers for over a week.

36v scooter contoller:
advantage: motors will last longer as they will never see 36v high. I can get a more capable 36v controller to run 4 motors with.
disadvantage: no high/low, if its too fast can't turn it down. harder to fit 3 12v batteries.

There are probably more advantages and disadvantages but these are the ones that concern me atm. If there are more pros and cons I should be considering let me know. Also let me know your opinion.



Click picture to view project blog!!

Edited by - Artax on 06/21/2010 21:29:51

gseric69
Moderator

Red Lion
PA
USA



6315 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  04:40:13  Show Profile  Visit gseric69's Homepage
You definintely do some really nice work. Did that quad come with #7 gearboxes in it already, or are you squeezing them in the rear end?

36V Peg Perego Apache - Project: Super Power Police Jeep, 18V Metal Frame Jeep - Project: Sarge
Dragon/Craftsman Pickup Hybrid (WIP), 18V John Deere Off Road 4x4 (Gaucho, SOLD!)
12V Lil Jeep, 18V Turbo Sun Jammer Jeep, 12V Super 6 F150 Blue Thunder,
18V Lightning McQueen & 12V Lightning McQueen w/Duratrax Motors (Sold)
18V Green & Blue Ninja Quads w/19T's, 18V Dora Quad with 21T's
12V Harley Bat Bike w/Duratrax Motors, 12V Pink Harley (Future Trike)
Future Builds: 12V Xtreme Machine, 12V PW Fire Truck, 6V Wild Thing Super 6 & Mach 5
RIP: 12V Super 6 Suzuki Quad w/Seperate Brake pedal (Decommissioned/Parted)

Edited by - gseric69 on 07/25/2009 04:40:36
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  05:56:00  Show Profile
It had #7 19T's in it when I took it apart. The spare Jeep I have also have #7 19T so I figured it was meant to be.

No opinion on what controller to use?



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gseric69
Moderator

Red Lion
PA
USA



6315 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  06:15:04  Show Profile  Visit gseric69's Homepage
The 36V controller would be the better option to me, only because you'll have it on 18V, which will help the motors last longer than if they were run on 24V. On 18V you'll have to have a pair of motors wired in series, which won't provide the traction if if there all wired in parallel with 24V, but traction aids can help.
The variable speed throttle will help too, so if full speed is too fast, it can be run slower (providing your child can restrain from going all the way on the throttle).
The space issue is the main concern. It might be challenging to put three 12V 12AH batteries under the seat, so you may have to go with a smaller 12V like 7-10AH.

36V Peg Perego Apache - Project: Super Power Police Jeep, 18V Metal Frame Jeep - Project: Sarge
Dragon/Craftsman Pickup Hybrid (WIP), 18V John Deere Off Road 4x4 (Gaucho, SOLD!)
12V Lil Jeep, 18V Turbo Sun Jammer Jeep, 12V Super 6 F150 Blue Thunder,
18V Lightning McQueen & 12V Lightning McQueen w/Duratrax Motors (Sold)
18V Green & Blue Ninja Quads w/19T's, 18V Dora Quad with 21T's
12V Harley Bat Bike w/Duratrax Motors, 12V Pink Harley (Future Trike)
Future Builds: 12V Xtreme Machine, 12V PW Fire Truck, 6V Wild Thing Super 6 & Mach 5
RIP: 12V Super 6 Suzuki Quad w/Seperate Brake pedal (Decommissioned/Parted)
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  08:57:49  Show Profile
Ok I think I have decided on the 36v contollers mainly becuase its safer on the motors. But also becuase I am impatient and tnc is out of all the 500w 24v esc's.

I have looked around for batteries and I feel I can get 3x 12v 9ah power cell batteries in the main battery compartment without too much modification. If I am only running 18v I think it will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 18v 13.5ah, correct me if I am wrong. Running 4 motors I should still get some decent run time I would think.

As for traction this quad will mainly be driven on grass so I have just ordered some bigfoot wheels (thanks eric). From what I have read on swhenrik's 4x4 quad and 4x4 bigfoot it seems the bigfoot wheels have better traction then the quad wheels. Then I may use the quad wheels on the next jeep (but thats another thread later). I can also add BMX tires to the wheels if I feel that is necessary later down the road.

So here is a list of parts I am going to order this weekend.

101111 Half Twist throttle 36v
101205 36V Controller (Model CT-660B9)
101227 2 wire key switch
101140 36v inline charger
101240 Charging Recepticle
101242 Recepticle Cover
3x 12v 9ah power cell batteries

Now I have read a little bit about charging in series so I believe this is doable without having to disconnect everything. Can anyone verify that I can hook an inline 36v charger to a charger port hooked to the controller to charge 3x 12v batteries wired in series? I would really like to be able to just plug it in and charge rather then unhooking, wiring in parallel and charging 12v. Any thoughts on this?

One last question I have is on brakes. Anyone know how the scooter controller brake wires work? I was considering removing the stock foot pedal and trying to use a hand brake http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101115 but I am not sure how I could wire it up to short out the motors. Any thoughts or knowledge on this would be appreciated.



Click picture to view project blog!!

Edited by - Artax on 07/25/2009 09:12:26
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gseric69
Moderator

Red Lion
PA
USA



6315 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  11:18:55  Show Profile  Visit gseric69's Homepage
This is the wiring diagram grant made which includes a relay to use a seperate brake pedal with a PW plunger switch. It might be possible to adapt it to an electric hand brake, or you could just wire the original throttle pedal as a brake pedal if you were going to use a twist throttle on the handle bar.


36V Peg Perego Apache - Project: Super Power Police Jeep, 18V Metal Frame Jeep - Project: Sarge
Dragon/Craftsman Pickup Hybrid (WIP), 18V John Deere Off Road 4x4 (Gaucho, SOLD!)
12V Lil Jeep, 18V Turbo Sun Jammer Jeep, 12V Super 6 F150 Blue Thunder,
18V Lightning McQueen & 12V Lightning McQueen w/Duratrax Motors (Sold)
18V Green & Blue Ninja Quads w/19T's, 18V Dora Quad with 21T's
12V Harley Bat Bike w/Duratrax Motors, 12V Pink Harley (Future Trike)
Future Builds: 12V Xtreme Machine, 12V PW Fire Truck, 6V Wild Thing Super 6 & Mach 5
RIP: 12V Super 6 Suzuki Quad w/Seperate Brake pedal (Decommissioned/Parted)
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gseric69
Moderator

Red Lion
PA
USA



6315 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  11:28:39  Show Profile  Visit gseric69's Homepage
I forgot to ask, can you post some close up pictures of how they squeezed in the #7 gearboxes in the rear end. That would be really great to show everyone how to do it since we all hate swapping in set after set of #3 gearboxes in these quads.

36V Peg Perego Apache - Project: Super Power Police Jeep, 18V Metal Frame Jeep - Project: Sarge
Dragon/Craftsman Pickup Hybrid (WIP), 18V John Deere Off Road 4x4 (Gaucho, SOLD!)
12V Lil Jeep, 18V Turbo Sun Jammer Jeep, 12V Super 6 F150 Blue Thunder,
18V Lightning McQueen & 12V Lightning McQueen w/Duratrax Motors (Sold)
18V Green & Blue Ninja Quads w/19T's, 18V Dora Quad with 21T's
12V Harley Bat Bike w/Duratrax Motors, 12V Pink Harley (Future Trike)
Future Builds: 12V Xtreme Machine, 12V PW Fire Truck, 6V Wild Thing Super 6 & Mach 5
RIP: 12V Super 6 Suzuki Quad w/Seperate Brake pedal (Decommissioned/Parted)
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  11:33:41  Show Profile
ok I remember seeing this diagram in my searches but after looking over so many wiring diagrams you forget features they each had. I am going to look this over and think about it, I think I could use a hand brake instead of the brake pedal he is using. Then I just need to find a relay that can handle it.

The problem with the stock pedal is the location. swhenrik tried it 2 different ways. First you can switch the brake wire on the stock foot pedal so you have to apply the brake but becuase the pedal is on the foot pad you have to lift your foot up off the pedal to go and he stated it looked awkward. He also had it set up so it was required to push the pedal or it wouldnt go but that seems too confusing. So I just want to remove it and replace it with regular foot pad with no pedal. You wouldnt happen to have an extra foot pad without the pedal laying around would you?



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gseric69
Moderator

Red Lion
PA
USA



6315 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  11:38:53  Show Profile  Visit gseric69's Homepage
Yes, actually I have both foot rests (the left side without the the foot pedal, and the right side with the foot pedal). They were originally red, but I painted them black.

36V Peg Perego Apache - Project: Super Power Police Jeep, 18V Metal Frame Jeep - Project: Sarge
Dragon/Craftsman Pickup Hybrid (WIP), 18V John Deere Off Road 4x4 (Gaucho, SOLD!)
12V Lil Jeep, 18V Turbo Sun Jammer Jeep, 12V Super 6 F150 Blue Thunder,
18V Lightning McQueen & 12V Lightning McQueen w/Duratrax Motors (Sold)
18V Green & Blue Ninja Quads w/19T's, 18V Dora Quad with 21T's
12V Harley Bat Bike w/Duratrax Motors, 12V Pink Harley (Future Trike)
Future Builds: 12V Xtreme Machine, 12V PW Fire Truck, 6V Wild Thing Super 6 & Mach 5
RIP: 12V Super 6 Suzuki Quad w/Seperate Brake pedal (Decommissioned/Parted)
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  11:56:54  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by gseric69

I forgot to ask, can you post some close up pictures of how they squeezed in the #7 gearboxes in the rear end. That would be really great to show everyone how to do it since we all hate swapping in set after set of #3 gearboxes in these quads.



yea let me know if you want something other then these.


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72.48 KB


85.24 KB

and here is the top portion of the housing.

80.73 KB



quote:
Originally posted by gseric69

Yes, actually I have both foot rests (the left side without the the foot pedal, and the right side with the foot pedal). They were originally red, but I painted them black.



Any chance I could get you to throw that LH foot rest w/out pedal into the box with the tires and mud flaps?



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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  11:59:19  Show Profile
now I am starting to wonder if the switch in that hand brake will handle 18v going thru it.

Oh and I just realised the switch in the hand brake is normally open and Grants diagram shows normally closed. I am going to have to think about this for a bit.

wait maybe normally open is what I want cuase you want to close the circuit when you pull the handle. I am confusing myself, this is why I am not an electrical engineer and I stick with mechanical stuff.



Click picture to view project blog!!

Edited by - Artax on 07/25/2009 12:04:58
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gseric69
Moderator

Red Lion
PA
USA



6315 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  12:18:43  Show Profile  Visit gseric69's Homepage
Yea, I'll throw it in. Thanks for the pictures.

The relay allows any switch to be used since the main current will be switched by the relay, only a small current would go to the hand brake switch.


36V Peg Perego Apache - Project: Super Power Police Jeep, 18V Metal Frame Jeep - Project: Sarge
Dragon/Craftsman Pickup Hybrid (WIP), 18V John Deere Off Road 4x4 (Gaucho, SOLD!)
12V Lil Jeep, 18V Turbo Sun Jammer Jeep, 12V Super 6 F150 Blue Thunder,
18V Lightning McQueen & 12V Lightning McQueen w/Duratrax Motors (Sold)
18V Green & Blue Ninja Quads w/19T's, 18V Dora Quad with 21T's
12V Harley Bat Bike w/Duratrax Motors, 12V Pink Harley (Future Trike)
Future Builds: 12V Xtreme Machine, 12V PW Fire Truck, 6V Wild Thing Super 6 & Mach 5
RIP: 12V Super 6 Suzuki Quad w/Seperate Brake pedal (Decommissioned/Parted)
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  14:08:36  Show Profile
But if you pull the positive off a set of batteries wired in series doesn't that mean it's going to get the full voltage? Like I said before I am not really into electrical so I could be way off. I know all it's the wire is doing is actuating the relay just not sure how much juice it's getting as it's only seeing the positive wire.

Also do you have any experience with charging in series using a controller and charge port?



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gseric69
Moderator

Red Lion
PA
USA



6315 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  15:19:30  Show Profile  Visit gseric69's Homepage
The Switch is connected through the coil, so it won't get the full power.

As for the charging port, you can use it to charge the 3 12V batteries in series with a 36V charger. Although series charging isn't usually recommended, if you charge each 12V seperately initially to make sure they're equally charged they should discharge equally. Once a season you should remove them and charge each one seperately at 12V though.

36V Peg Perego Apache - Project: Super Power Police Jeep, 18V Metal Frame Jeep - Project: Sarge
Dragon/Craftsman Pickup Hybrid (WIP), 18V John Deere Off Road 4x4 (Gaucho, SOLD!)
12V Lil Jeep, 18V Turbo Sun Jammer Jeep, 12V Super 6 F150 Blue Thunder,
18V Lightning McQueen & 12V Lightning McQueen w/Duratrax Motors (Sold)
18V Green & Blue Ninja Quads w/19T's, 18V Dora Quad with 21T's
12V Harley Bat Bike w/Duratrax Motors, 12V Pink Harley (Future Trike)
Future Builds: 12V Xtreme Machine, 12V PW Fire Truck, 6V Wild Thing Super 6 & Mach 5
RIP: 12V Super 6 Suzuki Quad w/Seperate Brake pedal (Decommissioned/Parted)
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  15:35:55  Show Profile
Ok thanks for the information. I really appretiate the help Eric. I couldnt do this project without this forum.

As for charging that sounds reasonable. Thanks again. I will probably place my order on tncscooters and power cell eBay store tomorrow as I am heading to my inlaws as we speak for a cookout. Got the jeep in the back of the truck, my nephew is going to give it it's maden voyage. I am going to make him give my son a ride since they don't own any two seaters (newer kfx quad, and mcqueen 12v) so we will see how it goes.



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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2009 :  19:01:57  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by gseric69

The Switch is connected through the coil, so it won't get the full power.



Ok I know I need a SPDT relay to do what is shown in the diagram above. But I am unsure of what specs the relay needs to be in order to use it inline with the main motor power coming out of the controller I have selected. I am looking at this controller.
http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101205
its a 36v 40amp controller. Does this mean I need a 36v 40amp or more relay? I have been looking around and can't seem to locate a relay that is capable of that. If this is the case I may just go back to a 24v controller as I originally planned. Anyone have any insight on this? thanks in advance



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DougK
Journeyman Modder

London

Canada

154 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2009 :  21:03:00  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Artax

quote:
Originally posted by gseric69

I forgot to ask, can you post some close up pictures of how they squeezed in the #7 gearboxes in the rear end. That would be really great to show everyone how to do it since we all hate swapping in set after set of #3 gearboxes in these quads.



yea let me know if you want something other then these.

quote:
Originally posted by gseric69

Yes, actually I have both foot rests (the left side without the the foot pedal, and the right side with the foot pedal). They were originally red, but I painted them black.



Any chance I could get you to throw that LH foot rest w/out pedal into the box with the tires and mud flaps?



That's great, I was about to ask to see the inside in case I toast the Metal Frame Gearbox in my Ninja that I modded in, so was curious what would be needed to get #7's in there, def would need alot more cutting to make them fit!!

Thanks

99 Ninja Quad W/Metal Frame Gearbox and 700 motors and 24 volt.

94 Metal Frame Jeep on 24V.

Edited by - swhenrik on 07/30/2009 14:27:59
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2009 :  21:18:15  Show Profile
I would be curious to see a side by side of the old housing that held the #3 gearboxes next to the new style housing that holds the #7 gearbox. Then everyone could get an idea of what it would actually take to modify the old housing to fit the #7's in there.

Oh and I drew up a wiring diagram of what I think my project will end up with. I still havent purchased any of the components yet but plan to shortly. And I just realized I am missing the charge port on the diagram but its not really needed on there.

If anyone see's any issues or concerns with the diagram let me know, I just took pieces of a few diagrams out there and pieced mine together how I thought it should be wired. As of now I am still planning on using the stock shifter/switches with the high/low screw in place. Not sure if they will handle this controller, but unless someone tells me otherwise I am planning on trying. Also I went with
swhenrik's concept of running the RL/RR in series and RL/FL in parallel and RR/FR in parallel. I think I have it wired correct.




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swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA



4067 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2009 :  14:40:38  Show Profile  Visit swhenrik's Homepage
I see you are making some good progress, and Eric is answering your questions well.

Your clamp-on gearbox holder for the front is pretty cool! But I'm not sure you are out of the woods for not needing to weld yet..... if yours has the plastic steering blocks like ours did, they are way too flimsy for a 4wd setup, especially if adding even more offset by fitting the #7's in there.

I still haven't done anything with the brake switch on our Dora Quad. It's so seldom that they need it. With 4 gearboxes dragging it slows down fairly fast. With 18 volts it would be more tempting. I would like to set up a foot brake still, so that they don't have to release their grip to reach a lever with their hand. But I just can't think of an easy way. I wanted the pedal in front of their toes, but the tires come way too close to the foot rests.

If you do decide to run a hand brake and relay.... run power from ONE battery, through the switch, and to the relay coil. Then run the OUTPUT power from the controller through the relay and then to the motors.

I added BMX tires on our Dora Quad. The difference was amazing. In the muddy/snowy spring, my son who LOVES getting stuck, actually got tired of getting stuck, got off his Dirt Grinder and jumped on the Dora Quad, climbing every snow bank he could find. The biggest problem is that the flat area in the center of the tire is just too flat. The Bigfoot tires will be a good upgrade though.

Seconding what Eric said, charging the 3 batteries in series will be fine. I'll add that you must ALWAYS run them together. Charging them separate once a season is a minimum, you may want to do it twice a season. In fact you can charge them in parallel for balancing the charge in them, this is what I do. The Dirt Grinder is wired as 24 volt, running and charging, and after 1 year seemed to be loosing battery capacity. I think it was just imbalance of charge causing it, once I charged them in parallel once, they were fine again.

If you wire up the same side motors in parallel like I did, I think you'll be pretty happy with it. The traction limits of the 2 sides in series with this setup is never a problem on ours.

For figuring run time.... if you have three 12 volt batteries, 9 AH each, connected in series, it makes a 36 volt 9 AH battery. But you are running motors in series, cutting your current in 1/2, making it act like an 18 volt 18 AH battery. Adding four wheel drive doesn't reduce run time much at all. I think you'll be happy with it.

I also think you made a good choice with running a 36 volt controller with 18 to the motors instead of trying to run a 24 volt with a full 24 to the motors. I have been pondering switching to a 36 volt setup when my daughter is ready for more speed. I removed the high speed lock-out on our Dora quad once to see what it would do. It was barely any faster then in low speed. I assume the controller was limiting the current too much. That was with the CT-302-S9 in it. I haven't tried it again with the LBD-14 in it.

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho

Edited by - swhenrik on 07/30/2009 14:55:14
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2009 :  15:46:27  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

Your clamp-on gearbox holder for the front is pretty cool! But I'm not sure you are out of the woods for not needing to weld yet..... if yours has the plastic steering blocks like ours did, they are way too flimsy for a 4wd setup, especially if adding even more offset by fitting the #7's in there.



Thanks the blocks should be pretty easy to assemble and adjust as far as I can tell. For the steering blocks I plan on adding support to the plastic steering blocks similar to what I did on the Barbie Jeep makeover. I created a plate that matched the hole pattern of the plastic block and U-bolted around the steering rod thru the plastic block and new steering plate. Check it out in my other thread it seems pretty strong when assembled. I think it will work out here.

I also just got one of the big foot tires today. They are a little bit bigger then the ninja tires and the hub cap offset is quite a bit larger which means I may not have to lengthen my axles. But I gotta do the math. I am going to shrink up the gearbox and hub with a few modifications. From my calculations I should be able to take out about 1" from the hub and gearbox width and still be fully functional with the same amount of engagement between them. I am probably going to modify one of the gearboxes this weekend then I can figure out how long my axles need to be.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik


I still haven't done anything with the brake switch on our Dora Quad. It's so seldom that they need it. With 4 gearboxes dragging it slows down fairly fast. With 18 volts it would be more tempting. I would like to set up a foot brake still, so that they don't have to release their grip to reach a lever with their hand. But I just can't think of an easy way. I wanted the pedal in front of their toes, but the tires come way too close to the foot rests.



I decided on the hand brake becuase I couldn't figure out how to move it out of the way yet be functional. The wheels come way too close to the foot pad in the fully turned position to move it forward any.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik


If you do decide to run a hand brake and relay.... run power from ONE battery, through the switch, and to the relay coil. Then run the OUTPUT power from the controller through the relay and then to the motors.



Can I not run it the way I current have it wired up in my diagram? I just ordered two relays 24v 60w (one for a spare) and Grant said he has run 36v to a 24v relay before and thought it would be ok for braking since you don't use it much. I didn't want to try to fit another battery in there just for brakes. I assume you are saying add another battery besides the 3 running in parallel.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik


I added BMX tires on our Dora Quad. The difference was amazing. In the muddy/snowy spring, my son who LOVES getting stuck, actually got tired of getting stuck, got off his Dirt Grinder and jumped on the Dora Quad, climbing every snow bank he could find. The biggest problem is that the flat area in the center of the tire is just too flat. The Bigfoot tires will be a good upgrade though.



I have been going back and forth on this one. But I think after seeing the bigfoot wheel today I have decided I am going to use these on the quad. If needed I can still ad BMX tires to these also.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik


Seconding what Eric said, charging the 3 batteries in series will be fine. I'll add that you must ALWAYS run them together. Charging them separate once a season is a minimum, you may want to do it twice a season. In fact you can charge them in parallel for balancing the charge in them, this is what I do. The Dirt Grinder is wired as 24 volt, running and charging, and after 1 year seemed to be loosing battery capacity. I think it was just imbalance of charge causing it, once I charged them in parallel once, they were fine again.



Thanks for the feedback here. Its always good to get some first hand knowledge from someone that has done it before and know what to expect. These batteries will only be run in this vehicle and will only be removed 1-2 times a season to charge them in parallel like you suggest.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik


If you wire up the same side motors in parallel like I did, I think you'll be pretty happy with it. The traction limits of the 2 sides in series with this setup is never a problem on ours.



Yea you seemed like it worked out ok so I figured I would try it. Does my wiring diagram look correct in this area. I believe it is but electrical is my weak spot. I can design mechanical stuff all day long but when I get into electrical its like my brain turns to spagetti.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik


For figuring run time.... if you have three 12 volt batteries, 9 AH each, connected in series, it makes a 36 volt 9 AH battery. But you are running motors in series, cutting your current in 1/2, making it act like an 18 volt 18 AH battery. Adding four wheel drive doesn't reduce run time much at all. I think you'll be happy with it.



Oh ok yea that makes sense. Thanks, again...brain...spagetti...lol

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik


I also think you made a good choice with running a 36 volt controller with 18 to the motors instead of trying to run a 24 volt with a full 24 to the motors. I have been pondering switching to a 36 volt setup when my daughter is ready for more speed. I removed the high speed lock-out on our Dora quad once to see what it would do. It was barely any faster then in low speed. I assume the controller was limiting the current too much. That was with the CT-302-S9 in it. I haven't tried it again with the LBD-14 in it.



Yea thats kinda what I was afraid of after reading Grants Gaucho thread. Although you should try it again with the LBD-14 since its got another 150w. Only problem with going 36v is I think my son is going to be waiting even longer to drive this one. He's just over 1 but I have been having so much fun fixing these things up and couldn't help myself.

Again thanks a ton for all the information and feedback.
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swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA



4067 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2009 :  10:19:32  Show Profile  Visit swhenrik's Homepage
Before I forget again..... do yourself a favor and order the plugs from TNC scooter also. I didn't see them in your parts list. Get the "battery/motor" connector, and maybe a couple extras. They are nice connectors, and only $.50 each. One will be enough, as 1/2 will connect to the motor plug, the other 1/2 will conncet to the battery plug. You'll likely need a regular 2 pin, a 3 pin, and a 6 pin. I'd order 2 of each, you may want to swap some wires around when you get to it. I run the throttle through the 6 pin if using a twist throttle with battery indicator. I like the indicator simply to see when the key is turned on.

We use the 1/2 size throttle and it fits the kids hands well.

While on this subject.... you could buy both a 24 volt controller AND a 36 volt. Let the kids run it 24 volts (still in low of course) until they are ready for more speed, then simply swap to the 36 volt. This is where the plugs are REALLY handy. Just watch closely where the wires are on each controller, my LBD-14 had the opposite polarity on the charging jack that the CT-302S9 had. Oh, and if you try to run a 36 volt throttle on a 24 volt controller, or vise versa, just don't connect the "battery" wire.

Another option is to try to physically limit the throttle movement. I did this with my daughter, even when she was 2 years old. But part of the problem was that the throttle was too touchy. Swapping to the LBD-14 solved that problem.

quote:
Originally posted by Artax

...I plan on adding support to the plastic steering blocks similar to what I did on the Barbie Jeep makeover....

Yep, I saw those already. That's a nice fix, and should be added to the FAQ's for fixing front eng sag.

quote:
Originally posted by Artax

...From my calculations I should be able to take out about 1" from the hub and gearbox width and still be fully functional with the same amount of engagement between them.

Did you understand what I did on the Dora front end to the wheel drivers? I cut them to take up less then 1/2 as much space on the axle. Though.... if you are running Bigfoot tires, I think you are running the other style drivers more typical with #3 gearboxes, which are already quite thin.

quote:
Originally posted by Artax

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

If you do decide to run a hand brake and relay.... run power from ONE battery, through the switch, and to the relay coil. Then run the OUTPUT power from the controller through the relay and then to the motors.


Can I not run it the way I current have it wired up in my diagram? I just ordered two relays 24v 60w (one for a spare) and Grant said he has run 36v to a 24v relay before and thought it would be ok for braking since you don't use it much. I didn't want to try to fit another battery in there just for brakes. I assume you are saying add another battery besides the 3 running in parallel.

Yes, you can. I hadn't looked at your diagram that close yesterday. But the only thing different to do what I was talking about, is to move the wire from "S3" to connect to the positive terminal of the bottom battery in your diagram. That way you could run a standard 12 volt relay. Or, to run the 24 volt relay, connect to the positive of the middle battery

quote:
Originally posted by Artax

Bigfoot tires vs. BMX..... I have been going back and forth on this one. But I think after seeing the bigfoot wheel today I have decided I am going to use these on the quad. If needed I can still add BMX tires to these also.

Or.... put the BMX tread on the stock tires, and swap back and forth. The BMX tread will probably sit better on the quad tires since they have that large flat area.

quote:
Originally posted by Artax

Does my wiring diagram look correct in this area.

Yes, it looks correct. Just make sure when you tie into the factory wiring that you get the correct wires to the correct motors. I goofed up mine a little, ran it a LOT, then I tried high speed and the front wheels wouldn't turn. Oops.

quote:
Originally posted by Artax

....you should try it again with the LBD-14 since its got another 150w.
I keep thinking the CT-302S9 is under rated, or the LBD-14 is over rated. The Bigfoot running four super 6's on the CT 302S9 runs fairly strong. Though as my son is getting older, the torque doesn't seem like enough. Maybe the controller is the problem? Also, I'm a bit gun shy about trying the quad on 24 volts again, we tried the Jeep with the CT-1505 on high speed, and it flew..... and then I noticed the dreaded electrical smell as my son went by, so I put the lock-out screw back in while it still worked. Looking at them later, the fans no longer turn. Another oops. Good thing I have spares.

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho

Edited by - swhenrik on 07/31/2009 10:23:37
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2009 :  13:34:42  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

Before I forget again..... do yourself a favor and order the plugs from TNC scooter also. I didn't see them in your parts list.



I ordered a bunch of connectors, More then I actually need but I wanted to be able to disconnect everything. I ordered

9x 2 Pin Battery/motor connector (one for each battery, 1 for each motor, 1 for battery-controller, 1 for motor-controller)
2x 2 Pin Modular Connector (power indicator, charger port)
1x 6 Pin Modular Connector (Drive system)

I may change my mind how I wire it but this is what I thought up when I was making my final order list. What did you use the 3 pin for?

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

We use the 1/2 size throttle and it fits the kids hands well.



Thats what I orderd, 36v version of course.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

While on this subject.... you could buy both a 24 volt controller AND a 36 volt. Let the kids run it 24 volts (still in low of course) until they are ready for more speed, then simply swap to the 36 volt. This is where the plugs are REALLY handy. Just watch closely where the wires are on each controller, my LBD-14 had the opposite polarity on the charging jack that the CT-302S9 had. Oh, and if you try to run a 36 volt throttle on a 24 volt controller, or vise versa, just don't connect the "battery" wire.

Another option is to try to physically limit the throttle movement. I did this with my daughter, even when she was 2 years old. But part of the problem was that the throttle was too touchy. Swapping to the LBD-14 solved that problem.



I thought about ordering both but I wanted a charging port and didnt want to have to get 2 chargers at this time too. Plus I sprung for the 36v 4amp inline charger to speed up charge times. I may try to limit the throttle once I get my hands on the throttle and see what I can come up with. I am hoping with this controller I dont have the touchy throttle problem you were having, we will see I guess.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

Yep, I saw those already. That's a nice fix, and should be added to the FAQ's for fixing front eng sag.



Thanks, I do what I can with the tools at my disposal. Of course I got the idea from you and your picture in the FAQ to begin with. Of course I improvised some but its basically the same as the picture you show. (btw that picture looks like its from pro-E, is it? thats what I use at work)

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

Did you understand what I did on the Dora front end to the wheel drivers? I cut them to take up less then 1/2 as much space on the axle. Though.... if you are running Bigfoot tires, I think you are running the other style drivers more typical with #3 gearboxes, which are already quite thin.



No I am not really familiar with the wheel drivers for 3B gearbox. I am using #7 19T gearboxes and currently have the standard driver http://www.hobbymasters.com/powerwheelsdriverhub74460-2249.aspx. Are you refering to these "thin" drivers? http://www.hobbymasters.com/powerwheelsdriverhubj4390-2269.aspx. Toyservice says these are used on the mustang but I haven't been able to find a good picture showing the width of them. They look alot thinner in the picture. And if they are used on the mustang they should work with #7 gearboxes. Hmmm looks like I need to make another order to hobbymasters as this may save me alot of time modifying stuff.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

Yes, you can. I hadn't looked at your diagram that close yesterday. But the only thing different to do what I was talking about, is to move the wire from "S3" to connect to the positive terminal of the bottom battery in your diagram. That way you could run a standard 12 volt relay. Or, to run the 24 volt relay, connect to the positive of the middle battery



Ok I didn't know you could get 12v 24v and 36v from batteries wired in series like that. Thanks for this info I will probably use the 24v 60w ones that I ordered and wire the way you recommend.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

Or.... put the BMX tread on the stock tires, and swap back and forth. The BMX tread will probably sit better on the quad tires since they have that large flat area.



Well even today I am still not sure what I want to do. I like the look of the bigfoot tires but like the hub caps for the quad wheels. Whatever I don't use here will be used on my other barbie jeep I have so either way both sets will get used. This may be one of those last minute decisions.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

Yes, it looks correct. Just make sure when you tie into the factory wiring that you get the correct wires to the correct motors. I goofed up mine a little, ran it a LOT, then I tried high speed and the front wheels wouldn't turn. Oops.



Thanks, I am still crossing my fingers that I can fully wire this thing up without messing anything up. I am sure I will be asking for help once I get everything in my hands.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

I keep thinking the CT-302S9 is under rated, or the LBD-14 is over rated. The Bigfoot running four super 6's on the CT 302S9 runs fairly strong. Though as my son is getting older, the torque doesn't seem like enough. Maybe the controller is the problem? Also, I'm a bit gun shy about trying the quad on 24 volts again, we tried the Jeep with the CT-1505 on high speed, and it flew..... and then I noticed the dreaded electrical smell as my son went by, so I put the lock-out screw back in while it still worked. Looking at them later, the fans no longer turn. Another oops. Good thing I have spares.



You are making me glad I went with the 36v controller. I just don't get it cuase it seems like everytone is running the 24v controllers. Does nobody run these things in high with controllers? Or they just don't come back and tell you how often they burn up motors?

Thanks again



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swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA



4067 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2009 :  14:30:24  Show Profile  Visit swhenrik's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Artax

2x 2 Pin Modular Connector (power indicator, charger port)
1x 6 Pin Modular Connector (Drive system)
What did you use the 3 pin for?

The throttle without battery indicator has 3 wires, so that's where I used a 3 pin. But now that you mention it, I think I've been sticking with the 6 pin lately. Because..... The throttle with battery indicator has 4 wires, the 3 typical hall effect wires, plus it needs battery power from one other connection on the controller. So you won't need that 2 wire connector for the battery indicator if you just use one open pin on the 6 pin connector.

That 6 pin is probably wired with the "brake" wires currectly. You'll want to pull those out of the 6 pin, and not use them.
quote:
Originally posted by Artax

btw that picture looks like its from pro-E, is it? thats what I use at work)
Nope, Solidworks.

quote:
Originally posted by Artax

No I am not really familiar with the wheel drivers for 3B gearbox.
This is what our Bigfoot uses:
http://www.hobbymasters.com/powerwheelsdriverhub73233-2239.aspx

quote:
Originally posted by Artax

Does nobody run these things in high with controllers? Or they just don't come back and tell you how often they burn up motors?
I think there's about a 75% failure rate for people who have tried 24 volts in general. Running a controller does seem to help improve longevity on 24 volts.... in fact I'm seriously thinking about putting a controller in our Nascar and running it at 24 volts. My son has a little run time on it with stock switches and 24 volts, and he smiles a LOT. Battery run time is poor though! The Nascar has the same motors as the Jeep, but a bunch less weight, so it may do OK.

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho

Edited by - swhenrik on 08/03/2009 14:31:14
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treebeme
Advanced Modder

Holtsville
NY
USA



3209 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2009 :  14:50:17  Show Profile
I get great battery life out of my scooter controllers. But I am also using 12ah batteries.

------------------------------------------------
Screamin Demon (600 watt scooter motor, 36v scooter controller)
Red Harley (trike, 24v scooter controller, 13t MFJ gearboxes/motors)
KFX Quad (24v scooter controller, MFJ 12t gearboxes/motors)
Fire Rescue Jeep (24v scooter controller, 15t #7 gearboxes/motors)
Franken(berry)beast (24v scooter controller, 2-250Watt Scooter motors)
Grave Digger (21T gearboxes)
Super Shock
Razor MX-350 Motorcycle

Projects
--------
Jeep Wrangler (on hold)
Barbie Cruzin Tunes Jeep (24v scooter controller)
TCV Indy Racer (24v scooter controller)
Gator (on hold)
Silverado Dragster (on hold)
Apache (on hold)
Metal big wheel (24v scooter controller)
Jeep Aftershock
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swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA



4067 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2009 :  07:02:28  Show Profile  Visit swhenrik's Homepage
The run time of our Jeep with dual 8 AH batt's is about an hour, running motors at 12 volts (in series). The Bigfoot with dual 12 AH batt's, 4wd and super 6's at 12 volts.... is again about an hour. The Nascar with dual gray PW batt's for 24 volts to the motors, is about 15 minutes. Adding a scooter controller will give no gains in run time (unless being driven slower).

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2009 :  17:25:29  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik
quote:
Originally posted by Artax

btw that picture looks like its from pro-E, is it? thats what I use at work)
Nope, Solidworks.



Ahh, I haven't done any training on Solidworks yet as not many of the companies we do business with use it.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik
quote:
Originally posted by Artax

No I am not really familiar with the wheel drivers for 3B gearbox.
This is what our Bigfoot uses:
http://www.hobbymasters.com/powerwheelsdriverhub73233-2239.aspx



What do the wheels engagement look like? The bigfoot wheels I have use the standard 4 lug extruded pieces that fit the standard wheel driver similar to the jeeps and quad I have.

BTW pretty much all of the parts have arrived. But I am still working on the front end. Even with the narrow mustang drivers and no modifications to the driver or gearbox I need to lengthen the front axles by about 7/8" at the least. Hopefully that doesnt affect the look, driveability, or the weight limit too much. I think with the supported steering blocks it wont be much of an issue but we will see when I get it together.



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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2009 :  21:00:59  Show Profile
Ok I have a decent update with pics so here it is. like I stated in my previous post I got the mustang wheel drivers. They are quite a bit thinner then the stardard wheel drivers but I still had to make new axles (I will get side by side pics when I pull it apart again). It just made it so I didnt have to modify anything else. I actually tried to modify the final drive gear at the driver engagment and lets just say it didn't work as the gear material is way too brittle to be trying to modify reliably. So I decided that the wheel base was just going to be wider then it used to be. I haven't measured the new front axles next to the old ones but my guess is they are about 1" longer. Here are some pics of the finished and assembled front end. Still need to pull it apart again for paint so this is just mocked up but I am making progress.


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Here you can see the mustang wheel driver


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swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA



4067 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2009 :  20:49:30  Show Profile  Visit swhenrik's Homepage
The pic on hobbymasters of the wheel driver that our Bigfoot uses is showing the back. When the driver is in the wheel, it sits in a hole so that it is flush.... so the hole looks like if you pushed the driver in plaster and then pulled it out.

Those Mustang drivers look nice and compact. I used standard drivers like yours came with in the rear, and trimmed them down short..... so they pretty much look like the ones you have. The #7 gearbox tucks into the wheel fairly well with that setup. If you want to trim anything, I'd trim the wheel driver more.

The distance from the backside of the gearbox to the steering axis (upright part of the "L" shaped spindle) looks kinda long. Is there any way you can pull the gearbox in further? Mine overlap the area where the plastic steering block was. My first attempt was putting the gearboxes on with the plastic steering blocks, but I trimmed the blocks shorter.... and later removed them and went with the welded on steering blocks, which gained some more room. My setup varies also cuz I used the #3 gearboxes up front that don't have the offset on the backside.

No matter how much work you put into it, the offset from the center of the tire to the steering axis is kinda long on these quads.... if you can't get it better, I'm sure it'll function just fine.

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2009 :  07:49:51  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

The pic on hobbymasters of the wheel driver that our Bigfoot uses is showing the back. When the driver is in the wheel, it sits in a hole so that it is flush.... so the hole looks like if you pushed the driver in plaster and then pulled it out.



The big foot tires I have use the standard wheel driver configuration so those are not an option for me.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

Those Mustang drivers look nice and compact. I used standard drivers like yours came with in the rear, and trimmed them down short..... so they pretty much look like the ones you have. The #7 gearbox tucks into the wheel fairly well with that setup. If you want to trim anything, I'd trim the wheel driver more.



There isnt anything to trim on the wheel driver. The gearbox driver is bottomed out in the driver and that surface is at the deepest end of the driver mounting ring. They are pretty much as narrow as possible. Only thing I could possibly modify to bring the driver closer to the gearbox is the final drive gear engagement and I already tried that and broke the gear.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

The distance from the backside of the gearbox to the steering axis (upright part of the "L" shaped spindle) looks kinda long. Is there any way you can pull the gearbox in further? Mine overlap the area where the plastic steering block was. My first attempt was putting the gearboxes on with the plastic steering blocks, but I trimmed the blocks shorter.... and later removed them and went with the welded on steering blocks, which gained some more room. My setup varies also cuz I used the #3 gearboxes up front that don't have the offset on the backside.



Yea I thought about trying to trim the block but decided it was probably better to reinforce the block then to get the gearbox closer. Plus it will only gain me about 3/8"-1/2" and the without support to the steering block I would guess its going to handle a whole lot worse. I figure 1/2" longer axle is the better idea in this situation. My only other option is to switch to the #3 gearbox like you used which might help me gain back a bit more space, but I have already spent enough on this setup and have decided I want to use what I have for the moment. If I decide later the axles are too long and wheels are sticking out too far I can try to find some #3's and switch them out later but for now I am going to stick with what I have.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

No matter how much work you put into it, the offset from the center of the tire to the steering axis is kinda long on these quads.... if you can't get it better, I'm sure it'll function just fine.



Yea thats pretty much what I have come up with. If I want to use #7 gearboxes and I dont have the option of welding atm I am just going to have to deal with the offset and see how it works. I appreciate all the help you have provided so don't think I am trying to knock your ideas just letting you know I have thought through all of this and the pictures I posted are the final result as of now. Thanks again

Edited by - Artax on 08/09/2009 07:52:52
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2009 :  20:36:18  Show Profile
Well I am still making progress and have not given up on this project. So here is an update showing the latest progress.

I got my zeus battery's in, I ordered 3 12V 9AH batteries. I picked these based on the dimensions on ebay and the size of these turned out really well. I did have to set them on thier sides to get them to fit but its no big deal since I have them so secure. I created a mounting strap and used velcro between each battery and at the bottom and along the strap so they pretty much don't move at all. And since I have a charging port these will only be removed once or twice a season so I am not too concerned about how difficult the hardware is to get to. Here is a pic of the battery layout.


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Next up I got the body painted. Funny thing is I had no idea what color I was going to paint this thing until I was on my way to Ace to look at the paint. On the way I saw this cool looking sport bike that was painted with a pearl white with a black seat and had some silver accents and it just hit me. So I picked up a couple cans of white and black and a can of nickel shimmer. I decided to paint the body and handlebars white and the seat and some accent parts black and add a fresh coat of nickel shimmer to the current silver parts. Here are a few picks of the body in the painting process.


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26.47 KB

Well I kept thinking about that bike with the pearl white and decided to do some searching on the internet about pearl paint and came across a pearl clearcoat paint made by testers. Its Gloss Pearl Clearcoat 2944. Well I located some at the local hobby lobby and bought 2 cans. They only sell it in the smaller 3 oz can and it was $5 a can so kindof expensive but I wanted to give it a try. Lets just say I am very happy with the results. And I didnt have any of the problems with the paint blistering and crinkling up like I did with the jeep hood using the krylon gloss clearcoat. Its kinda hard to see in pictures but here are a few pics of the body after the pearl coat.


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58.86 KB

I also got a chance to mount the twist throttle and hand brake. I mounted the hand brake on the same side as the throttle mainly cuase I didnt want to teach my boy to use the brake on the LH side then have to reteach him again later when he has a real quad (grandma and grandpa are already talking about getting a small one for the farm for him and his cousin). I am guessing he may not use it but hopefully the gearbox drag helps stop this thing anyhow. I did have to cut some of the plastic and had to up the size of the handlebars. I used 3/4" copper pipe and just press fit it on and mounted everything to it. I plan on drilling a hole in the copper pipe where the set screw from the twist throttle hits the handlebars so the setscrew is on the handlebars and to make sure the copper pipe doesn't slide or twist but I am going to wait fil final assembly. Here are a few pics of the handlebars. You can kinda see the pearl coat on a few of these pics. Oh you can also see the black handgrip I sourced from the for sale section to replace the red one on the LH side. (thanks Nascar)


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Thats pretty much it for now. I am currently painting the nickel shimmer on the remaining parts and should have that done this weekend. Next week I should start wiring this thing up.

Oh and here is a few pics of the mustang wheel drivers next to the standard wheel drives since I keep mentioning them.


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58.09 KB

I think thats it for now. Let me know what you think.
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gseric69
Moderator

Red Lion
PA
USA



6315 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2009 :  08:51:55  Show Profile  Visit gseric69's Homepage
Looking really good. I like you're battery hold down bracket. What did you use to bend the metal, it looks very professional.

36V Peg Perego Apache - Project: Super Power Police Jeep, 18V Metal Frame Jeep - Project: Sarge
Dragon/Craftsman Pickup Hybrid (WIP), 18V John Deere Off Road 4x4 (Gaucho, SOLD!)
12V Lil Jeep, 18V Turbo Sun Jammer Jeep, 12V Super 6 F150 Blue Thunder,
18V Lightning McQueen & 12V Lightning McQueen w/Duratrax Motors (Sold)
18V Green & Blue Ninja Quads w/19T's, 18V Dora Quad with 21T's
12V Harley Bat Bike w/Duratrax Motors, 12V Pink Harley (Future Trike)
Future Builds: 12V Xtreme Machine, 12V PW Fire Truck, 6V Wild Thing Super 6 & Mach 5
RIP: 12V Super 6 Suzuki Quad w/Seperate Brake pedal (Decommissioned/Parted)
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2009 :  09:01:15  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by gseric69

Looking really good. I like you're battery hold down bracket. What did you use to bend the metal, it looks very professional.



Thanks. I just used a vice, a pair of sheetmetal vice grips, and a hammer.



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RICKYVB
Senior Modder

TAMPA
FLORIDA
USA

1265 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2009 :  14:22:11  Show Profile
Very friggen cool,I love it!!!
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 08/27/2009 :  17:39:42  Show Profile
It LIVES

Well I finally got the quad wired and it runs. Only thing that doesnt seem right is the brakes. Here is how it is wired up. Its a little different then my original wiring diagram but I basically just removed one of the switches since it wasn't really needed and added the charge port.


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As far as I can tell everything is hooked up correct. I can hear the relay click on and off when I pull the hand brake and if I am on the throttle the hand brake shuts off the motors but it doesnt seem like it is braking the motors. The motors don't seem to slow down any faster with the hand brake then just getting off the throttle. After doing some intial checkes with my cheap multimeter the relay is doing its job and there is resistance between the positive and negative motor wires it just doesn't seem like it's working or the resistor I am using is not working correctly. I am using a 5 watt .47ohm resistor from radio shack. Well anyhow I will try it again when I get everything fully put together and have a chance to get a kid on it.

Anyway here are some pics of the wiring and assembled picks as it sits.

Clam shell motor wiring

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Ovareall wiring

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Battery wiring, I set these up so you can not connect anything incorrect. It only goes together one way. Only thing is I need anthing 2 pin connector so I can make a charging harness so I can wire these in parallel a couple times per season.

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I will get some better pictures when I get the wheels together and assembled. I decided on the ninja wheels mainly becuase I like the hub caps alot better. I will use the big foot tires for the next jeep project I think. I also picked up some bike tires for traction bands. I will report back on how everything works out. If anyone has any ideas on why the brakes dont seem to be working let me know. Thanks



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Edited by - Artax on 08/27/2009 17:44:17
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Divinar
Moderator

San Jose 95123
CA
USA



3057 Posts

Posted - 08/27/2009 :  18:06:52  Show Profile
The relay LOOKS like it should ground out the motors right. Disconnect the pawer, throw a jumper across it, and see if you can still turn the wheels?


Escalade (Rubber tires, LED lights, Key switch, Remote Kill, wings. Wings?)
Lil Wrangler (2WD, 12v, Lights), Dora Jeep (Super-6 @ 12v, lights), Jeep Enforcer turned Aftershock (18v, WIP),
Grape Gaucho A151 (24v, scooter controller, WIP)
KFX Quad (Remote Kill), Crushmeister! (Silverado), Limited Edition Jeep (Stock)
Kawasaki Mojave 250 (Stock), PP Gator (Lights), Home Depot Loader, Lightning McQueen (Stock)
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gseric69
Moderator

Red Lion
PA
USA



6315 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2009 :  12:43:43  Show Profile  Visit gseric69's Homepage
Your resistor might be too high. Try it with a 5W .1 or .22 Ohm resistor and see if that makes a difference.

Are the wheels hard to turn after they've come to a stop, or does it still roll pretty easily?

36V Peg Perego Apache - Project: Super Power Police Jeep, 18V Metal Frame Jeep - Project: Sarge
Dragon/Craftsman Pickup Hybrid (WIP), 18V John Deere Off Road 4x4 (Gaucho, SOLD!)
12V Lil Jeep, 18V Turbo Sun Jammer Jeep, 12V Super 6 F150 Blue Thunder,
18V Lightning McQueen & 12V Lightning McQueen w/Duratrax Motors (Sold)
18V Green & Blue Ninja Quads w/19T's, 18V Dora Quad with 21T's
12V Harley Bat Bike w/Duratrax Motors, 12V Pink Harley (Future Trike)
Future Builds: 12V Xtreme Machine, 12V PW Fire Truck, 6V Wild Thing Super 6 & Mach 5
RIP: 12V Super 6 Suzuki Quad w/Seperate Brake pedal (Decommissioned/Parted)

Edited by - gseric69 on 08/29/2009 12:46:57
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2009 :  20:32:15  Show Profile
Thanks guys I will have to try to tear it apart again sometime in the future. I stupidly put the relay under the bonnet next to the switches so I have to take the top apart to do any further diagnostics on it.

I do want to report that I got the final details together last weekend and took it over to my in laws for my nefew to drive. He is going to be 3 in about a month. He has a Kawasaki with the boost twist throttle so he seemed to understand the twist throttle just fine. The batteries lasted about 45min before the throttle battery indicator started showing orange/low and started to slow down but still ran it for another 15min or so and still had some charge left so I am pretty happy about that. Only took just over 1 hour to charge with the inline 4 amp charger so I am guessing there was still a bit of charge left.

Also not having the brake working didnt seem to matter much. He wouldnt have pulled the handle anyhow but it seems to stop pretty quick just letting off the throttle. It does coast some but its not so bad that I got scared he would run into anything.

Lets just say this thing is going to go anywhere it wants. The 4wd on this thing is crazy along with 18v and bmx tires. Let's just say everyone thought he was going to injure himself the entire time and as soon as we put him on it he wouldnt get off until it was almost dark. He was on full throttle it seemed like full time. Lets just say I had that evil grin you get when you did something cool but the mothers dont really like.

I didn't get any pictures of him riding but I took a few after I finished assembly with my son. I first took my son for a ride around the yard. It's a bit easier to drive this with him on it then the jeep cuase the throttle and steering are easier to get to, plus the variable throttle. Here are a few pics.


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And this is what Carter looks like when you take him off the quad to take pictures without him.


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Click picture to view project blog!!

Edited by - Artax on 08/31/2009 20:39:57
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cjlucas78
Journeyman Modder

Cypress
Texas
USA



143 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2009 :  08:03:23  Show Profile  Click to see cjlucas78's MSN Messenger address
Nice work, but he can't even fit on it yet, lol

What is the fun in keeping items factory?

My Son's Raptor Project
http://www.modifiedpowerwheels.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8687
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2009 :  09:05:01  Show Profile
Hey just cause my son is small and might be a bit young for these toys doesn't mean you have to try and ruin my fun. :/. :P



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Dongskie
Journeyman Modder


Manila
Philippines



380 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2009 :  14:11:38  Show Profile  Visit Dongskie's Homepage  Click to see Dongskie's MSN Messenger address  Send Dongskie a Yahoo! Message
Where can I get a variable speed controller?

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HLMDAD
Expert Modder

Apple Valley
Cali
USA



857 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2009 :  14:39:12  Show Profile  Visit HLMDAD's Homepage
wow that came out nice....don't worry he will be trying to jump things in no time! excellent job!

My wife said stop at 10... well 35 and counting.





My new website
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gseric69
Moderator

Red Lion
PA
USA



6315 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2009 :  16:32:18  Show Profile  Visit gseric69's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Dongskie

Where can I get a variable speed controller?



A lot of us in the US order from www.tncscooters.com

36V Peg Perego Apache - Project: Super Power Police Jeep, 18V Metal Frame Jeep - Project: Sarge
Dragon/Craftsman Pickup Hybrid (WIP), 18V John Deere Off Road 4x4 (Gaucho, SOLD!)
12V Lil Jeep, 18V Turbo Sun Jammer Jeep, 12V Super 6 F150 Blue Thunder,
18V Lightning McQueen & 12V Lightning McQueen w/Duratrax Motors (Sold)
18V Green & Blue Ninja Quads w/19T's, 18V Dora Quad with 21T's
12V Harley Bat Bike w/Duratrax Motors, 12V Pink Harley (Future Trike)
Future Builds: 12V Xtreme Machine, 12V PW Fire Truck, 6V Wild Thing Super 6 & Mach 5
RIP: 12V Super 6 Suzuki Quad w/Seperate Brake pedal (Decommissioned/Parted)

Edited by - gseric69 on 12/22/2009 16:34:40
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Fortis
Senior Modder

melbourne
victoria
Australia

1154 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2009 :  17:55:27  Show Profile
That is just all sort of nice. Excellent colour choices too, but it is begging for a working headlight in the handlebar head.

I have to admit I have been kicking around the notion of doing a 4x4 quad to replace the silver quad in the next month or two, but neither of Miles' arger quads are using PW gb's any more and that means trying to match ratios on PW boxes up front and worm drive boses in back...Makes my head hurt, because even if you get the rotations matching at one voltage input, they go out of synch again when you switch the voltage around.


I am really impressed with your build, though. Can't wait to see video!

Colbert: So the AK-47 is like the Windows platform of guns, it's everywhere.

Pike: No, no. It's MUCH more reliable than that.

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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2010 :  21:18:19  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Fortis

That is just all sort of nice. Excellent colour choices too, but it is begging for a working headlight in the handlebar head.

I have to admit I have been kicking around the notion of doing a 4x4 quad to replace the silver quad in the next month or two, but neither of Miles' arger quads are using PW gb's any more and that means trying to match ratios on PW boxes up front and worm drive boses in back...Makes my head hurt, because even if you get the rotations matching at one voltage input, they go out of synch again when you switch the voltage around.


I am really impressed with your build, though. Can't wait to see video!




Thanks I really enjoyed this one. It is actually my sons favorite even though he cant drive it. I stole the batteries from it over the winter to use in the powertech go-kart and just got another set of batteries for it last week. So I started taking him for rides again. This thing holds up really well with 170lbs on it. I thought for sure I would start braking something but I bet we have at least 4-5 hours on it and nothing is broken yet. The 4wd really takes some stress off the gearboxes even with the bycicle tires.

Also, I finally decided to dive in to try and figure out the brake issue as it has really been bothering me. I also bought a remote kill setup for this one so I figured now would be a good time to set that up. I also decided since I had the bonnet open I would rewire part of it and move the brake relay and resistor to under the seat near the controller so its easier to troublshoot if I have issues again. Anyhow the issue with the brake turned out to be the resistor fried. My multimeter was getting no resistance at all through through it. So I went and bought 2x 1 ohm 10 watt resistors and ran them in parallel to give me a .5 ohm 20 watt setup. The brakes work now and seem to be holding up even with me on it though they seem a bit stonger then I would have hoped. I have another 1 ohm 10 watt resistor sitting around so I may add that one and have .33 ohm 30 watt setup like my powertech go-kart has to soften it up a bit more but we will see. Well here are some new pics of the wiring. I will see about getting a video up of this thing.



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I also added an LED below the key switch that turns on when the remote kill is activated. I hated on the powertech go-kart when the kill was active and I didn't know it. I had it happen a few times so this LED makes me happy. Thanks for the help CJB

65.28 KB



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swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA



4067 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2010 :  13:51:08  Show Profile  Visit swhenrik's Homepage
I'm not surprised to hear that it holds up to you riding it.... besides the plastic steering blocks it's a fairly well build vehicle. Ours is getting an occasional click in one front gearbox, but not very often.... we're using the #3's up front still that I put in when I built it, which were used when I got them. This spring it got a lot of use in super sticky muck almost up to the axles, that was kind of hard on it.

I'm still pondering swapping to a 36 volt controller..... but my son upgraded to a gas powered 50cc quad a couple days ago, and my daughter now gets the Dirt Grinder.

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho
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Divinar
Moderator

San Jose 95123
CA
USA



3057 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2010 :  16:47:42  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Artax

...Also, I finally decided to dive in to try and figure out the brake issue as it has really been bothering me. I also bought a remote kill setup for this one so I figured now would be a good time to set that up. I also decided since I had the bonnet open I would rewire part of it and move the brake relay and resistor to under the seat near the controller so its easier to troublshoot if I have issues again. Anyhow the issue with the brake turned out to be the resistor fried. My multimeter was getting no resistance at all through through it. So I went and bought 2x 1 ohm 10 watt resistors and ran them in parallel to give me a .5 ohm 20 watt setup. The brakes work now and seem to be holding up even with me on it though they seem a bit stonger then I would have hoped. I have another 1 ohm 10 watt resistor sitting around so I may add that one and have .33 ohm 30 watt setup like my powertech go-kart has to soften it up a bit more but we will see. Well here are some new pics of the wiring. I will see about getting a video up of this thing...



Remember, lower resistance is harsher braking action.
To "soften" them, maybe use only one of the 1 ohm resistors?


Escalade (Rubber tires, LED lights, Key switch, Remote Kill, wings. Wings?)
Lil Wrangler (2WD, 12v, Lights), Dora Jeep (Super-6 @ 12v, lights), Jeep Enforcer turned Aftershock (18v, WIP),
Grape Gaucho A151 (24v, scooter controller, WIP)
KFX Quad (Remote Kill), Crushmeister! (Silverado), Limited Edition Jeep (Stock)
Kawasaki Mojave 250 (Stock), PP Gator (Lights), Home Depot Loader, Lightning McQueen (Stock)
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2010 :  19:19:09  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik

I'm not surprised to hear that it holds up to you riding it.... besides the plastic steering blocks it's a fairly well build vehicle. Ours is getting an occasional click in one front gearbox, but not very often.... we're using the #3's up front still that I put in when I built it, which were used when I got them. This spring it got a lot of use in super sticky muck almost up to the axles, that was kind of hard on it.

I'm still pondering swapping to a 36 volt controller..... but my son upgraded to a gas powered 50cc quad a couple days ago, and my daughter now gets the Dirt Grinder.



Sounds like with the gas quad and the dirt grinder you may have things covered. But I do have to say the 36v controller with 4wd seems to work out pretty weel. I have actually considered creating a 24v 4wd running 2 controllers that can handle 2 motors each @ 24v. I really think if you can keep the motors cool at 24v the gearboxes would hold up fine with 4wd. This is one of those projects that will happen later when the boy starts driving the larger vehicles but I think it would be fun.

quote:
Originally posted by Divinar
Remember, lower resistance is harsher braking action.
To "soften" them, maybe use only one of the 1 ohm resistors?



Thanks for correcting me. For some reason I always get mixed up with brake resistors. I always think the lower the ohms the less brakes but with a lower ohm they resist less which means harder brakes.



Click picture to view project blog!!
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swhenrik
Moderator

Pengilly
MN
USA



4067 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2010 :  09:24:38  Show Profile  Visit swhenrik's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by Artax

Sounds like with the gas quad and the dirt grinder you may have things covered. But I do have to say the 36v controller with 4wd seems to work out pretty weel. I have actually considered creating a 24v 4wd running 2 controllers that can handle 2 motors each @ 24v. I really think if you can keep the motors cool at 24v the gearboxes would hold up fine with 4wd. This is one of those projects that will happen later when the boy starts driving the larger vehicles but I think it would be fun.


The PW's still get used, even with the other options sitting there. One day they want speed, and get the race cars out. Aother day it's the Dora 4x4 and Bigfoot 4x4 so they can go off-roading together.

If considering trying to make it faster, I'd lean toward going with a 48 volt controller. Simply unplug your controller and plug in the new one.... and of course add yet another battery. If you go with straight 24 volt, the run time will be poor. I would also worry that the controllers wouldn't match, making one work too hard and overheat. And depending on how you wire it, it could make 2 wheels spin faster then the other 2.

The series wiring obviously has a downfall of allowing one side to spin and the other stop, but it has never been a problem on ours, and our kids push them pretty hard.

My only dream left for PW based vehicles is more torque, LOTS more. Peg Perego 800 twin gearboxes at a minimum, Gaucho SP preferably. A 60 volt system running 24 volt motors in series!

Projects: Jeep, Bigfoot, Lil' Quad, Dora Quad, Dirt Grinder, Nascar, Intro, Ultimate Gaucho
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bigair49
Journeyman Modder



Canada

114 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2010 :  10:47:20  Show Profile
That thing looks like it should haul @$$! looks good too!!
Great work

http://www.modifiedpowerwheels.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17704
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2010 :  12:36:36  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik
If considering trying to make it faster, I'd lean toward going with a 48 volt controller. Simply unplug your controller and plug in the new one.... and of course add yet another battery. If you go with straight 24 volt, the run time will be poor. I would also worry that the controllers wouldn't match, making one work too hard and overheat. And depending on how you wire it, it could make 2 wheels spin faster then the other 2.



That is another really good option if I ever decide to make this one faster. I may actually be able to get another battery behind the other 3 under the seat using this size battery also. I was really thinking about doing the 24 option on a different vehicle without traction bands. I am thinking traction bands on 24v might be a bit much. I have time though as the boy still isnt riding this one yet.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik
The series wiring obviously has a downfall of allowing one side to spin and the other stop, but it has never been a problem on ours, and our kids push them pretty hard.



I havent had any issues with this one but it also has bicycle tires as traction bands so it pretty much goes wherever you point it. I do have some issues getting up a steep hill with me on it but still goes just a slows down a bit.

quote:
Originally posted by swhenrik
My only dream left for PW based vehicles is more torque, LOTS more. Peg Perego 800 twin gearboxes at a minimum, Gaucho SP preferably. A 60 volt system running 24 volt motors in series!



After seeing the 4x4 SP guacho Millino made I have been pondering finding someone to help me weld up a front end for the JD 4x4 and figuring out a way to convert the back pan to accept SP gearboxes. Maybe even go with SP wheels. That thing is just amazing but seems it would cost a bundle to create. GL with whatever you do.



Click picture to view project blog!!
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Artax
Journeyman Modder

Davenport
IA
USA



459 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2010 :  12:39:26  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by bigair49

That thing looks like it should haul @$$! looks good too!!
Great work



Thanks, its pretty fun and moves along nicely. I have some video of my nephew driving it but I just havent had a chance to upload it. I will see if I can get it up in the near future. I keep saying that in all my posts and never seem to get around to it.



Click picture to view project blog!!
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